Sears: [00:00:00] This is Radio Stockdale. I'm Michael Sears at the Stockdale Center for Ethical Leadership at the United States Naval Academy. We're talking about honor and specifically the honor concept at the Academy and how that fits into our path to leadership, character, and law as a midshipman and as officers in the Naval Service. I'm joined by the first semester Brigade Commander, Midshipman Jackie Booker. Midshipman Captain Booker, thanks for joining us.

Booker: [00:00:37] Thank you, Mr. Sears, for having me, I'm really excited to have this conversation and happy to be with you today.

Sears: [00:00:43] This is a great conversation because I know the man that you are really feel these things and you've seen how this works over the last four years and especially in your position as the Brigade Commander. How does honor relate to leadership?

Booker: [00:00:56] I think that's a very interesting question, it has a pretty deep answer, but it is pretty simple when you get to the root of it. Firstly, as a leader, everyone's going to look at you as the standard bearer and that an enormous sense of holding other people to the standards. But essentially, whenever you leave your room, for example, whenever you're out in public, whenever you're in class, everyone is always going to look at you and see what you're doing, whether you realize it or not. So, in keeping that in mind, everything you do has to be with intentionality and understanding that you have to do the right thing even when no one's watching or when everyone's watching. So, in that sense, being honorable is really just understanding your principles and doing and sticking by them so that you can lead effectively and people can understand, like, hey, he not only talks or talks, but also walks and walks, and that helps with respect and leading your peers.

Sears: [00:01:47] You know, that's one of the things I think we learned in Youngster Ethics, right? You've got to practice these things. This goes all the way back to Aristotle. You've got to practice it continually being honorable, continually being ethical to get better at it, right?

Booker: [00:02:02] Yes, sir. I think of it as like the Mamba mentality, you have to try and get better at it day by day, every step. And if you keep doing that, then eventually it becomes second nature.

Sears: [00:02:12] Well, let me ask about that then from the standpoint of leadership. You know, we've always had that question is a leader born or does a leader develop? Let me ask you your concept of whether or not honor is a natural inclination or is it something that can be developed or should be developed?

Booker: [00:02:30] Hopefully, this isn't a cop out answer, but I think it's a little bit of both. I think especially when we're growing up in our own environments, around our friends and family, our sense of honor and right and wrong is definitely influenced by what we see when we're growing up and what we're taught. But at the end of the day, like we're humans, we can be influenced and shaped and molded by ourselves and others as well. So, it's certainly something that can be developed throughout our lifetime. And kind of what you alluded to earlier is that it's just a repetition each day of trying to make as many good decisions, right decisions, helpful and beneficial decisions as possible so that in the total, you'll get one percent better every day. And I think as long as you just get on that path and you see on that path for as long as possible, you'll end up where you want to be.

Sears: [00:03:15] You and I had spoken before about authenticity. I mean, I can tell you are a very authentic guy. You live your life. All the steps you take are really who you are. Can you tell me your thoughts on how authenticity relate to honor?

Booker: [00:03:31] It's you can't have one without the other. I think if you weren't authentic to who you are as a as a person and the leader, then you can't serve in your capacity with honor. So, in terms of authenticity, if you're feeling imposter syndrome or you're not comfortable with who you are like, you care too much about how people perceive you, you're more inclined to do things that may not be right or may not be against your values or against institutional principles to try and keep a perception of yourself in public. But if you're authentic to who you are and you're comfortable with who you are, then those things kind of, you rise above them and you're willing to be who you are and be who you are in the right way without worrying about any backlash.

Sears: [00:04:15] Now, here's a tough question because you need to be authentic. You need to be true to who you are. But we have a brigade honor concept, right? So, do you have to embrace that honor concept and continue to be authentic? But what if you're not? What if you can't embrace that honor concept? That's the hard question. What do you do?

Booker: [00:04:34] I think that's one of life's biggest questions is that how do you embrace something that you may not necessarily agree with, especially in the military when you have orders that you have to always carry out, regardless of your personal beliefs with them? I'm a big person in finding your own meaning in everything that's given to you. So, for on our concept, while someone may not personally agree with the words that are written into the concept, if they can break it down into like a message or value or meaning that they can resonate with in their own lives and just attach it to that, that's a perfectly acceptable way of still being authentic, but also carrying out and acting in a way that supports the Honor concept.

Sears: [00:05:12] So let's say you have made a mistake. You did something that was less than honorable, either an honor violation vis a vis the honor concept. Can honor once lost, ever be regained?

Booker: [00:05:27] Personally, I think if you don't make mistakes, then you aren't learning or you aren't getting better. In a sense, honor is something that once you once you break the trust or, like you fail at it, it'll be difficult to regain that for other people, from your peers, from your instructors, from officers. But at the end of the day, it can be regained. It's just going to take one, understanding within yourself why you did what you did and understanding why would you did was wrong, and then working to correct that. But you know, we're all humans. We all make mistakes, and it's better to make a mistake and admit it and work to get better from it than to have never made a mistake at all or pretend like you aren't capable of doing so.

Sears: [00:06:06] Well, let's let me let me push that a little bit once you make that mistake. Once you go through remediation or whatever, does that mean you're done? Or is this a path you're on?

Booker: [00:06:17] It's a path. I think it's like once you finish like doing a workout program like you finish school, like that doesn't mean like, you know, everything in the world about your like your major, you know, everything about the workout program. It's just a foundation or launching point from where you should continue on because at the end of the day, remediation you're being guided with your remediation officer like your remediation advisor. But the real learning and development is going to have to happen on your own with no one, you know, walking you through it or knowing nudging you or pushing you. This something you have to find yourself. So, to your point at the remediation, that's where honesty really starts. That's where development and actualization of who you want to be, that's where that starts.

Sears: [00:06:59] You know, this is probably a question I should have asked you on the way into this conversation, but maybe let's see if we can answer it on the way out. Midshipman Booker, what does honor mean to you?

Booker: [00:07:10] So I'll be honest, this is a question I've thought about a lot, especially as Brigade Commander kind of figuring out what I wanted to define honor as. And I always thought like when we all report on I-day, we already know like a casual definition of honor or something is along the lines of like doing the right things when no one is looking or living a life of integrity or being honest. And I think those definitions are pretty good, but I think they're really surface level. So, I think one interpretation or definition that I've found that I've really liked is that honor should be viewed as something similar to respect. It's something that we should have to earn or achieve, especially in a sense of here, honor should be something that we're earning and achieving so that we can join the exclusive society of officers that are in the Navy and Marine Corps. And that's something that we should be working towards every day so that when we commission, we can feel comfortable leading sailors and marines.

Sears: [00:08:07] Midshipman Jackie Booker, thanks for joining us talking about honor on Radio Stockdale.

Booker: [00:08:12] Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure, Mr. Sears.

Sears: [00:08:21] You've been listening to Radio Stockdale, a series of podcasts produced by the Stockdale Center for Ethical Leadership at the United States Naval Academy. You can hear more podcasts at stockdalecenter.com\podcasts.